Corresponding with a Bitter Man

E-Mail Correspondence between

Pastor Craig Ledbetter and Brian

Concerning the Inerrancy of Scriptures,

and the inability of those who attack it to stay calm under fire.

 This collection of email correspondence is provided to demonstrate the inability of those who say they oppose the Bible to actually debate the issues they claim to want to raise.

Time and again, the discussion will start off measured and point for point, only to degrade to Brian attempting to "barrage" his opponent with an overwhelming mass of "evidence" when one main issue would be sufficient to argue. Brian, as is the case with most "athiests," evidently has a problem with a God he doesn't understand, and that he doesn't like.

 As you read this correspondence, just realise Brian is searching for just ONE flaw so that he can tear down the whole concept of God. Brian doesn't ever allow for the fact that his idea of a flaw with God MAY JUST BE A FLAW IN HIS UNDERSTANDING OF GOD!

February and March, 2005

From: Brian

Sent: 10 February 2005 13:37

To: Craig

Hi Craig. Brian here. Remember me? Long time no see (or hear). I hope you and your family are well. I called out to you on Patrick St. recently put you musn't of heard me. What did you do to your distinctive facial hair? You shouldn't have listened to them! I tried to grow a beard and it looked like a mixture of baby fluff and mange! Not only can I not grow hair where I want it,but its disappearing from where I want it to remain!

I hope J____, K_____ and co. are well. I've run into J____ and D____ a few times,had one or two mini-theological debates. Anyway the reason I contacted you is because I have a request. It came to my attention recently that my "testimony of salvation" is still on your website. I hadn't even thought of it before but I'd appreciate it if you would remove it. Its not true now (it wasn't even true when it was written) and I'm sure you don't want something so blatantly false on your website. I'd like my picture removed too. Please understand this isn't some dig at you; I'd just prefer if it wasn't there.

You were a friend to me in hard times and my differences aren't with you personally, but with your beliefs. I know that for you they probably go hand in hand but I definately make a distinction.

Well,again I hope you are well.I can't wish you luck with your proselytizing but good luck with everything else.

All the best

Brian.

Hello Brian!

So glad to hear from you!

I too had forgotten about your photo on the website. Not old age, but been busy with things mainly on the Ballincollig side and the main website itself.

Sorry that I didn't take the picture and testimony off before now, but I don't give up so easily on people. The testimony was not concocted like you imply. It came from a struggling heart, and that is why it was real.

Anyway, it is now gone from the website. It gave me a chance to put a few more pictures up of new people that I have pictures of.

I am glad you don't control the press - I am still glad to be able to speak freely and tell people about the only Saviour and answer to the heart's problems. Freedom means that people of differing views have to get along.

Jesus died at the hands of people who didn't believe in such freedom. Remember that there is no one who loved you as you are. Only one Person ever will - and He is the One who made you, and drew you to Himself.

I am sorry that I didn't have all the answers that you sought, but I, like Paul do "know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day." There is nothing like knowing the truth - real truth - it doesn't always make sense, but it is awesome when it does!

Hey! Also, Ken Ham from Answers in Genesis www.answersingenesis.org will be speaking at the Silver Springs Hotel on the 3rd of March, starting at 7pm - ask him all the questions, and maybe he will do a much better job than I.

Just to let you know, I thank God I got to know you, and will always be your friend!

God bless you - He is much better than luck! Even the luck of the Irish.

Craig Ledbetter and family

From: "Craig Ledbetter" <Craig

To: "Craig Ledbetter" <Craig

Subject: Verses for Today - 1Peter 3:15-17

Verses for Today

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts:

and be ready always to give an answer

to every man that asketh you a reason

of the hope that is in you

with meekness and fear:

Having a good conscience;

that, whereas they speak evil of you,

as of evildoers,

they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in

Christ.

For it is better,

if the will of God be so,

that ye suffer for well doing,

than for evil doing.

1Peter 3:15-17

Pastor Craig Ledbetter

Bible Baptist Church

Westgate Foundation, Ballincollig

Mallow Community Hall, Mallow

www.biblebc.com

From: Brian

Sent: 15 February 2005 15:16

To: Craig

Hi Craig,Brian again. I see you sent the atheist a bible verse! I contacted the organiser of the Ken Ham talk and unfortunately there will be no Q&A session, only one on one questions IF there's time after Ham's speeches. It sounds like he's afraid someone might ask him a question he can't answer. Thanks for telling me about it any way. I think you should send 1 Peter 3:15-17 to Ham as well, maybe then he'd be willing to answer questions.

Thanks again

All the best

Brian.

Hello Craig, Brian here. Have you read the tract I was distributing at the Ken Ham event? I gathered from how cordial you were with me that you think I am some kind of lapsed or wayward Christian; that I needed a Christian woman to sort me out. I know from talking to Weston the other night that he thinks I’m a confused Christian who “thinks” I’m an atheist.  As you know no true Christian would think they were an atheist. According to 1 John 2:22 and 2 John 7, I am an anti-Christ. I am diametrically opposed to the spread of any form of Christianity because I know it is false and am actively involved in telling others the same. I set up Common Sense Today with another ex-Christian I met at college and an ex-Morman, both Americans.  We have already stopped a number of Christians going to church by “de-converting” them. So now you know exactly what I stand for Craig. I thought it best to “lay all the cards on the table” so to speak. I like you very much personally, I always thought you were what we call a sound man; decent,friendly, moral and upright. I’m not attacking you personally but what you stand for. My mind is made up, as is yours. If the Bible is right I had no choice any way; God gave me “the spirit of slumber”, I was “of old ordained to this condemnation” (Jude 4). I’m not one of the “chosen” who have been “predestined” to salvation (Eph.1:4-5).  If you still want to email debate some of the points I raised in my tract and some of the many questions I have asked you before I’d love to do that.  At least you try to answer questions unlike Ham, I told you you should have sent him 1 Peter 3:15, but he’s not a King James Christian anyway so maybe the wording is different in his “Bible”. He came out with some rubbish the other night; saying the people who died in the tsunami would have died anyway as no one is innocent, he doesn’t know the Bible as well as he thinks he does because Exod.23:7 and Jer.2:34 say some people ARE innocent. No doubt he would rationalize those verses away like everything else. What he likes is the Word of God, always and forever, what he doesn’t like is out of context, progressive revelation or situational ethics all of which fly in the face of Mal.3:6 and James 1:17. Thats the kind of “selective adherence” that woke me up to the reality of Christianity in the first place. How dishonest.

Anyway Craig thats the story, that’s how I feel. If you want to email me about any point I raised in my tract or whatever I’d love to hear from you, I’d love to debate a Christian who knows the Bible. I was talking to a Baptist from New Mexico the other day, he was saved over a year ago and I asked him to turn to Isaiah, to which he replyed “which Testament is that in?”!! Now I know why you are so keen on getting people saved BEFORE they read the Bible, like me, because if they read it before hand or read the Old Testament first, they’d never believe it!

If I don’t hear from you, I’ll understand.

Take care

Brian.

 From: "Craig Ledbetter" <Craig

To: "Craig Ledbetter" <Craig

Subject: Verses for Today - Hebrews 12:14,15

Verses for Today

Follow peace with all men,

and holiness,

without which no man shall see the Lord:

Looking diligently lest any man fail

of the grace of God;

lest any root of bitterness

springing up trouble you,

and thereby many be defiled;

Hebrews 12:14,15

Pastor Craig Ledbetter

Bible Baptist Church

Westgate Foundation, Ballincollig

Mallow Community Hall, Mallow

www.biblebc.com

From: Brian

Sent: 18 March 2005 10:28

To: Craig

Follow peace with all men?

Matt.10:34 "I came not to send peace but a sword".

Luke 22:36 "He that hath no sword let him sell his garment and buy one".

Luke 14:26 "If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother...he cannot be my disciple".

Luke 12:47 "And that servant...shall be beaten with many stripes"

etc,

etc.

You never told me what you thought of the "Tell it like it is" leaflet.

Judging from the amount of emails I got after the Ken Ham seminar a lot of "Christians" thought it made a lot of sense.

Brian.

From: "Craig Ledbetter" <Craig

To: "'Brian'" <-mail-

Subject: RE: Verses for Today - Hebrews 12:14,15

Brian,

I haven't emailed you back because frankly, I haven't had the time.

Concerning your confusion that we cannot seek peace with everybody, but at some point we must use judgment and ultimately a sword is laughable.

It is no contradiction. I hope you never seek to join the detective branch!

The decision to follow Christ must be an individual one that will cause division between even friends and family. But we don't follow Christ IN ORDER TO cause division.

Anybody who is saved seeks no division, but is willing to accept one if the others around them break off from them.

That is so simple it is amazing you only see a surface contradiction.

The "servant" you quote below is someone who deserves punishment. But the other side is also true that the employer, or master should NOT seek to dominate and abuse his employees.

Have fun Brian.

I will get to your leaflet. I just have a good amount of fun of my own still preaching and teaching the great news that Jesus saves sinners - of whom I am chief!

Craig

From: Brian

Sent: 18 March 2005 11:55

To: Craig

Hi Craig. I'm having plenty of fun; I'm glad to hear you're having plenty of fun too! I'm looking forward to hearing your responses to some of the "issues" I raised in my leaflet when you have time. I'm not the one who's confused Craig! The "servant" of Luke 12:47 is in fact a SLAVE. Jesus was a chip of the old block when it came to that Christian institution as the history of your country (and in particular your home state) proves. As your great compatriot Jefferson Davis said: "It [slavery] was sanctioned in the Bible, among the People of God, in both Testaments from Genesis to Revelation". But at least you are willing to address my questions, unlike Ham; I can't believe I contributed E5 to that charatans coffers!. Its nice to see we can be firendly even though we are in opposition. Enjoy your retreat.

Brian.

From: "Craig Ledbetter" <Craig

To: "'Brian'" <-mail-

Subject: RE: Verses for Today - Hebrews 12:14,15

Brian,

You did not even barely respond to my explanation of your supposed contradiction.

The fact remains, we are to seek peace, but there are times when peace stops and judgment begins.

Also, about Ken Ham being a "charlatan" - you have a lot to learn. He has written thousands of pages dealing with questions and issues and cannot deal with everyone personally and you call him a CHARLATAN?

I am ashamed of you. Your atheism is affecting your ability to be respectful.

I will deal with you personally because I love you and only want to be a help. You have been a blessing to me, and I appreciate you - but I don't appreciate your attitude in some of your dealings either with me or others.

It is time to grow out of your bitterness against God.

Craig

From: Brian

Sent: 21 March 2005 10:35

To: Craig

Hello Craig. Firstly, I'd like us to stay friends and I'd like to hear some of your responses to my leaflet so I won't get personal and say things like "I'm ashamed of you". I thought someone who was shown so much "grace" by his God would be more gracious than that with others.

With regard to Ken Ham, you didn't hear my conversation with him so you've no idea. I went up to him and said "Hello Mr. Ham that was an interesting talk" and shook his hand. I identified myself as a former Christian fundamentalist. I asked him why we are being punished for Adam's sin, after all he ate the forbidden fruit not us. He said Adam was the federal head of the human race and I would have done the same in his shoes and we are not being punished for his sin but our own. I qouted Rom.5:12,19 which prove he was mistaken. He conceded that and then I quoted Deut.24:16 and Ezek.18:20 which say the children shall not be punished for the sins of the fathers, but we are punished with mortality and a propensity to sin because of the actions of ONE far of ancestor. He replyed I was over complicating it and said somone else was waiting (there wasn't). What would you call that Craig?

Would you call that a Christian following 1 Peter 3:15, I certainly wouldn't. That was just one question. He was obviously caught of gaurd by an opponent who knew scripture. I had more to ask but that was that. Maybe charatan's a bit strong, but after his "sinami" stuff and his attribution of societie's ills to evolution that's the only way I could discribe him. Sorry if that upsets your sensibilities.

Secondly, your response to the "peace" quotes. You didn't mention Luke 22:36 in which Jesus tells people to buy swords. How can that be reconciled with

Matt.26:52 "All that take up the sword shall perish with the sword" and "turn the other cheek"? What about Luke 14:26 where you can't be a disciple of Christ without hating your parents?

Thirdly, do you realise that the servant of Luke 12:47 is a slave and that slavery is sanctioned in both testaments, as your our friend Jefferson Davis said? If you can't admit that Craig then your not as honest as I thought you were, if that's the case then your so blinded by your faith you can't see the truth. You know as well as I do that slavery was abolished in spite of the Bible not because of it.

I'd like to hear from you again. I think we can keep it civil for old times sake. I don't think it would take long for someone as well accquainted with scripture as you are Craig to reply to some of the issues in "Tell it like it is". Until then, all the best...

Brian.

From: "Craig Ledbetter" <Craig

To: "'Brian'" <-mail-

Subject: RE: Verses for Today - Hebrews 12:14,15

Hello Brian.

Of course I am your friend and have always sought to be such.

I thought I was being very gracious with you, but you have been pushing some limits when you call people like Ken Ham charlatans and see them as only money grubbers, etc. He is not part of the conversation we are engaged in, so either I have to ignore your attacks or attempt to bring balance back into the conversation which is what I have attempted to do.

Concerning your conversation with Ken, I am surprised you think he "conceded" the problem with responsibility for sin due to your two Scriptures.

You want to prove that Romans 5 contradicts Deut 24 and Ezek 18. Do they?

I'll re-print them here and show you something:

Rom 5:12, Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

This is where sin entered. God did not create a sinful nature in Adam or Eve - just the ability to do sin. Sin is to do anything against the will of God - period. We call it "disobedience." God is the definition of right and good. There is no other higher law than the very character, the very nature of God.

Rom 5:19 shows that the very same God who allowed sin to enter the world system also took responsibility for sin so that sin's power could be defeated.

Now, your supposed contradiction is expressed in Deut 24:16 as follows:

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

What you fail to remember is that no one is damned or put to death or judged for Adam's sin at all. The truth is, every baby is safe and ends up in heaven because they are not held responsible for Adam's sin and they cannot be held responsible for any sin they commit - not until they understand good and evil whether by conscience or by the words of the law of God (Rom 7:7-10). When a person gets old enough to clearly disobey, their OWN sins are what damn them.

What Adam's sin of disobedience did was three things:

1)  Bring a curse upon all of the universe (Gen 3:17-19) - it's what we call entropy (which includes universal decay, the introduction of thorns, weeds, and death where it had only been life before).

2)  It affected the very nature of all of Adam's descendants so that they would never be able to NOT sin at all - some may sin less than others, but all people sin (that is what Romans 5:8 is saying "for that all have sinned"). This is the fulfilment of the warning in Gen 2:16,17, that if Adam disobeyed God, he would surely die on that very day. It's funny that you didn't see THAT as a contradiction, because Adam DID NOT die that very day - he went on to live a total of 930 years (Gen 5:5). But, maybe you remember that it is not only a physical thing in a human that can die, but a spiritual part as well. Your soul can't die (as in cease to exist), but your body and your spirit can. So Adam and Eve's spirit died within them in Gen 3:6,7.

3)  That dead spirit is what is passed from father to child ("death passed upon all"), and each person's spirit must be regenerated by faith in the substitutionary death of a Lamb in their place by faith, or else they will remain separated from God for all eternity in a lake of fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. See Titus 3:5; Eph 2:1, etc.

In very simple terms, a DEAD spirit is what is inherited from our parents, but physical, and ultimately eternal death occurs not because of Adam's sin, but because of our own sin.

Ken Ham's response that you are overcomplicating things is a valid response because it would have taken quite a bit of time to work through your confusion. I think you were too expectant of a debate between himself and yourself and since you did not get a dedicated debate, you feel justified to go around and slam him. Shame on you! Not everybody can dedicate this much time to your questions.

I am amazed that you even thought it was a valid endeavour to present him with several questions that would require a bit more time than most any speaker would be able for - try it on any of your professors between breaks at any of their presentations in front of 800 people and see how much time THEY would give you! You may get ONE question in (which you did with Mr. Ham), but you won't get a half hour's discussion, that is for sure!

Concerning Luke 22:36, obviously swords are for more than gang warfare, but are also for personal self defence. When it comes to religious matters, a Christian will not physically fight. We will turn the other cheek and walk on, seeking peace with all men as a general rule. But when it comes to our families, and our country, we will fight and die to protect them, and Jesus NEVER taught pacifism when duty calls for self defence, and for protecting the weak.

BUT, for a person who wants to LIVE by his sword, that person will ultimately DIE by the sword. No mature Christian EVER loves fighting or killing, but is supposed to be ready and willing to do it if and when the necessary time comes.

Concerning your "slave" of Luke 12:47, look back at verse 44, "Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath." The servant that you so cling to is made RULER of everything by his right efforts. Some "slave".

As far as Jefferson being my "good friend" - remember who you are talking to - I am a Texan that grew up learning the ins and outs of the men of our country's founding and discovered many flaws in them - just like I know of a few in YOU too (wink, wink).

Loads of people have used the Bible to prove their own sinful actions. That proves nothing. Yes, the Bible in BOTH Testaments deals with slavery, but not in the ways you hope it does! It deals with it progressively, and does it without encouraging rioting, and bloodshed and mass murder.

As far as my memory serves me, it has for the most part always been CHRISTIANS who have fought to end slavery! Hmmmm. Now HOW could that be?

Seems that most of the atheists of old did the opposite - remember a few of "your good friends" Stalin (atheist), Marx (atheist), Moa tse Tung (atheist) - each of them were responsible for ENSLAVING entire nations and murdering tens of millions.

Now, I have associated YOU with the very people that thought like you seem to believe. Funny isn't it?

I know you are NOTHING like those men.

But you seem to enjoy aligning ME up with a slave owner like Thomas Jefferson.

Thomas Jefferson did NOT believe the Bible was the word of God at all. Only that it was a Good Book of morals, and that was it! Go check it out! He was NOT a Bible believer!

Better read up on your facts before you present them.

Well, that's enough time on this today.

Please, all of your emails and issues are important to me - I take this very seriously, and I just hope you don't continue to become more and more imbalanced in your inquiry for the truth.

Concerning your leaflet, it may be quite a while before I get to it because there is just not enough of me to go around. Maybe one day when you are married and working a full time job, and involved in a major way in activities outside of home and work, you will see that people just don't have time like they wish they did - not that I don't want to deal with it, but there are so many more important things for me to accomplish.

I think you will understand. At least I hope you do.

Your friend, always,

Craig

From: Brian

Sent: 21 March 2005 15:56

To: Craig

Thanks for your quick response Craig, I know you have a lot of pressures on your time. Concerning Romans 5; it clearly says "ALL" men are sinners because of the actions of one man, the first Adam. We have a "sin nature" as you put it, because of the disobedience of one man. We would not be sinners if it were not for Adam; thats punishing the children for the sins of their "original" father.We die for our own sins but we wouldn't be sinners if it wasn't for Adam. Exod.20:5 says God does punish children for the sins of others, our mortality is an example, Exod.12:29 is another. How do you reconcile "I [God] VISIT (not permit to pass upon) the iniquity of the fathers upon the children" with "the son shall NOT bear the iniquity of the father" Exod.18:20? Thats whats called a contradiction Craig! Moreover,

Deut.324 says God's work is perfect.Adam was God's work therefore he had to be perfect and if he was perfect how then could he have sinned? If someone tells you they are a perfect maan and then immediately sins, thats excellent proof they weren't perfect in the first place. Regardless of how much free will he had, if he chose to sin, then he wasn't perfect. And to totally confuse the stituation Eph.1:4-5, Rom.8:29-30, Eph.1:11, Acts 2:27, Jude 4, Acts 2:47 and 2 Thess.2:13 among many others teach presdestination; we have no free will and are only acting out a predetermined scenario written by God!

You say the Second Law of Thermodynamics came into being with the Fall! What about digestion?What about friction, which turns ordered mechanical energy into disordered heat? If what you're saying is true then Adam and Eve would have been sliding all over the Garden of Eden!

Show me where the Bible abolishes slavery and I'll show you Deut.15:17, Lev.25:45-46, Exod.21:20-21, 1 Cor.7:21,22 and 1 Tim.6:1-2 . Note

Exod.21:20-21 equates a "sevant" with being your masters property. Show me where Jesus spoke out against slavery, on the contrary he sanctioned the beating of slave sin his parables. Anyway I remember you told me once you didn't believe in "situational ethics"-- it contradicts Mal.3:6 and James 1:17.

What's this about babies being safe Craig? I think you're reading the Gospel according to St. Craig! Show me ONE verse that says infants are safe and I'll show you Psams 58:3 and Psalms 51:5. If you really believe children are automatically saved then at EXACTLY what time do they become unsafe? When you consider going to an eternity of punishment or reward then people who believe that children are automatically saved should either kill their children or arrange for someone else to do it; you never know waht temptations adulthood might bring. In that way chance would be eliminated at the outset and every murdered child  ( who would have gone to hell

otherwise) would spend eternity with God. John 14:6 says Jesus is the ONLY way, it's Jesus or the high, there isn't a third option. I'm very surprised to hear you of all people suggesting their is. You taught me the Bible too well Craig for those kind of arguments to work!

With regard to Mr. Ham. I was told by one Mr. Mervyn Scott that there'd be at leat two hours of questions, there wasn't. That's why I brought my questions along, give me some credit.I'm glad I went though because I came into contact with a good number of "doubting Thomas" Christians.You mention (in)famous Atheists. Stalin was actually a Christian (Orthodox Catholic) to his dying day as is proven by diaries and eye witness accounts (his child included).

And what about your Brother in Christ and fellow Texan George Dubya, who has "liberated" 100,000 Iraqi civilians of thier lives and sent them straight to Hell! He sure took those "sword" verses to heart. He took Jer.25:27 "Drink ye and be drunken and spew and fall and rise no more) to heart as well.

I know all about time contraints Craig, travelling to Cork, going to college and working part time taught me about that--you don't have to be married. I look forward to hearing your reponses to my leaflet (When you have time).

I enjoy these little debates, most Christians in college don't know one end of the bible from the other.

Take care of yourself Craig

Brian.

Ps: I think you should make  2Thess.3:10 a memory verse, there are people in your congregation who definately don't take it seriously!

From: "Craig Ledbetter" <Craig

To: "'Brian'" <-mail-

Subject: RE: Verses for Today - Hebrews 12:14,15

Ok Brian,

Obviously, you are overheating, and I think I shall put you on the slow

list.

Your reference to 2Thes 3:10 did it. I am well aware of the few who are

not obeying that verse, and am working with them, but it is none of

your business. If you were still in church, you would have a say, and

be a part of helping them maybe, but in your position, you have some nerve!

Take good care of yourself.

I was endeavouring to answer you but you show me you are a messer, and

I will have to move on.

Your discussion below is worthy of response, but your attitude is not.

In a few weeks, let's pick this up again.

Craig

Hi Craig.

  I am well aware that my discussion is worthy of a response, but you keep saying you don't have time--it takes ten minutes to knock an email together.

You know as well as I do that the Bible teaches predestination which destroys free will and man's moral responsibility.You know Romans 5 says we are punished because of the first Adam. You also know that your babies are "safe" idea is unbiblical (otherwise you would have quoted a verse to support it) you certainly know the Bible well enough. You know the Bible sanctions slavery. You know the Bible contains mistakes--you admitted that one day when we had coffee in the Kylemore, you said they "didn't matter", that 6 or 7 mistakes wasn't bad considering what the Lord had done in your life. I remember how shocked I was when you said that. Up to that point I had admired you so much but that admission changed everything for me.

Mistakes in an inerrant book don't matter! I always thought to myself: if somone as intelligent as Craig believes this there must be something to it!

You know I was never a stead fast Christian and hearing you say that was so disappointing. That's when I decided I had had enough.I read the Bible once more and discovered more than "6 or 7" mistakes, in all honesty you know that too.

   I mentioned 2 Thess.3:10 because a certain individual always preaches at me when I meet them, quoting salvaion verses but never 2 Thess.3:10.

Strangely enough it was my sister who pointed out that verse and that "situation" when I brought her to church. She read the NT in a week and said it was strange that she was obeying God (working) and going to hell, while Christians were disobeying God (not working) and going to heaven. She was right. She was nearly converted but that turned her right off. Such hypocracy is very damaging for your image. By the way, I don't remeber having a say when I was in church.

   When I joined your church I was an ignorant moron with regard to the Bible-I believed everthing you said without reading it myself. I'm grateful for my time there because I know the Bible quite well now. So well in fact, that a Calvinist student recently called me a demon of hell because he said no atheist could qoute the Bible so well! A back-handed comlpement. Maybe if I didn't know the Bible the way I do I'd still be a Christian. I certainly miss the friends I had. Having a destiny was pretty cool too. You'll never know how hard it was leaving--but I was right. There ARE mistakes in that inerrant book of yours, you know it. You won't hear from me again, Craig, I'll be talking to people who have some concern for the truth. I'm not the messer...you are.

Brian.

You know Brian, I asked that this be left off for a few weeks because it was heating up to far, and yet here you go!

I told you, you are some person to be slamming Bible verses at people when you don't believe them. I think in both churches, there is only one guy who is not working - even D______ S_______ has a new job.

I just don't give up on people like you and your sister do. No wonder you don't believe in God - you compare Him too much with yourselves - and that would depress anybody.

The verses that seem to teach predestination you are so worried about are easily overwhelmed by the context each is spoken in.

You can call me a liar all you want (and believe me, your true colours are showing more and more), but I do not see any contradictions, or errors in the Bible. I have some problems explaining some things, but that is not a reflection on the Bible - just on my abilities to understand everything - which is a big problem with you.

Just because you don't understand gravity does not mean it is a lie perpetrated on the people!

I am sorry you are shutting down the discussion. Your brashness and elevated words show me this was not a real discourse. From my part is has been.

You should have cooled off.

If you do want to restart, let me know, but I cannot give it priority, and your diatribes about understanding and attacking my busy-ness mean nothing until you are in my shoes.

I leave you with that.

Sadly,

Craig

One more thing Brian,

You said the following in your last email,

"You know the Bible contains mistakes--you admitted that one day when we had coffee in the Kylemore, you said they "didn't matter", that 6 or 7 mistakes wasn't bad considering what the Lord had done in your life. I remember how shocked I was when you said that. Up to that point I had admired you so much but that admission changed everything for me.

Mistakes in an inerrant book don't matter! I always thought to myself: if somone as intelligent as Craig believes this there must be something to it!"

You picked me up wrong that day. I did not say there were any errors. I said there were some things that I can't answer. I said out of 400 "problems" that other people had put forth on the internet and that people had presented to me over the years, only 6 or 7 were far beyond me. Many of the rest of them take a bit of time, but come clear with context and patience - like a good detective. Most of them are too silly to even respond to. I just never intended to say anything otherwise, or give you the slightest impression that I believed there were errors of any kind in the Bible, because there are none.

If all of this activity on your part is because "I" gave you that impression, then you are lying, because you presented me that day at Kylemore with your list of already collated problems, and you expected me to instantly have an answer for them. I wish I was as fast as I used to be, but I wasn't that day. But I am just as firm in my confidence in the evidences of the Bible's inspiration.

Also, I DID give you Scripture about a baby being safe from Romans 7. You kind of dismissed them though - over your head? I have plenty more.

Just don't use me for your reason to be mad at God, Brian. I am not worth it!

I will tell you this, you are worth everything to me, and I don't know why I am become your enemy, but so be it. You are not mine.

Craig

Hello Craig.

  I'm not in the slighest bit "overheated". You get the wrong impression

because we're not talking face to face. Sorry about that. I never called you

a liar and I never called you my enemy. I must say I'm surprised at your

attitde: snide remarks, name calling!

  Of course I wasn't execting you to have a an answer for everything on my

list that day in the Kylemore. You're not the reason I'm not a

Christian--the Bible is. I'm definately not blaming you. But, you were a big

part in my "conversion". I hadn't read the Bible myself so I was taking your

word for it. That's why it was a shock to hear about "problems". That

undermined my belief, but I would have seen the problems myself even if you

had said nothing. As I said its not your fault; you didn't write the Bible.

  Unfortunately we'll never agree on these matters, that's obvious. I just

can't understand how you can say the Bible is error free. With regard to

predestination no appeal to context saves the day. I know why you're against

it, its a monstrous idea that blasphemes any God that might exist, but the

Bible teaches it. It mentions those "chosen", "called", "predestinated",

"foreknown", "elected" and "ordained" to salvation. It also talks of the

those "ordained", "appointed" and blinded for damnation. If you're

interested I can send you 70 references which prove Calvanistic Christianity

is the true Christianity.

  With regard to the salvation of babies, infants, children, the retarded

and those that never heard, the Bible says Jesus is the ONLY way. (John

14:6, John 3:18, John 3:36). Its Jesus and heaven or you're going to hell.

End of story. No Jesus and you're damned. Romans speaks of "being with

excuse" but you are not saved by believing in God because of general

revelation, but by believing in JESUS because of the Bible. Loads of people

believe in "God" without Jesus. The people above are damned because they

don't believe in Jesus. The image of a newborn baby burning in the furnaces

of hell is disturbing but thats what the Bible teaches. To quote Jonathan

Edwards:

   "Their heads, their eyes, their tongues, their hands, their feet, their

loins and their vitals shall  forever be full of a glowing fire, enough to

melt the very rocks and elements. Also they shall be full of the most quick

and lively sense to feel the torments, not for tens of millions of ages, but

forever and ever."

   Thats divine justice. Its no more disturbing than a twenty-year old

roasting in eternal agony for a finite number of sins but thats what the

Bible teaches.

  You'll no doubt explain away these difficulties. What about more straight

forward ones?

  2 Kings 24:8 says Nebuzaradan came to Jerusalem on the 7th day

  Jer.52:12 says it was the 10th

  Ezra 2:64 says the number was 42,360 but its really 29,818.

  Neh.7:66 says its 42,360 but its really 31,089.

  Matt.4:5-8 Jesus was taken to the Temple first.

  Luke 4:5-9 He was taken to a mount first.

  Luke 24:2 The tomb was closed.

  Matt.281-2 It was open.

  Deut.6:5  Love God.

  Matt.10:28 Fear God.

  1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love.

  Titus 1:2, Num.23:19  God cannot lie.

  Ezek.14:9, Jer.29:7, 2 Thess.2:11 and 1 Sam.16:2 God lies.

  Also see my leaflet to see why Jesus is not qualified to be the messiah.

There's loads more, I'm just making a point, not trying to blitz you. Yet

you say there are no errors! There are Craig. And once you admit it the

Bible becomes a book like any other book--how do know what is true when you

begin to admit certain parts are false?

   I'm not trying to attack you, I'm trying to show you reality. I'm telling

others the same. Five people at the Ken Ham seminar were so amazed by the

points in my leaflet that they're leaving the church. People have a right to

know the Bible I agree with you totally. I think every man, woman and child

should read it and be allowed to make up their own minds. Thats what I did.

If you ever want those verses on predestination or want to discuss these

problems in a civil way just email me. If not, that's fine. I'm tried of the

aggressiveness and childish name calling I get from you and other Christians

when reason comes to call. Take care. Brian.

From: "Craig Ledbetter" <Craig

To: "'Brian'" <-mail-

Subject: RE: One more thing...

Brian,

Concerning my statement about being overheated, I am only going by the way the discussion was moving.

You moved from a straightforward debate about Biblical inerrancy to predestination, and then onto personal attacks on people in church.  You say that “I” have been aggressive and name calling?  I did not think I was approaching this discussion that way at all! If I have, let me know, and I will quickly back down and apologize because that is not what I want.

But I do believe it was YOU who called Ken Ham a “charlatan” - am I right?

Come on Brian.

Bitterness does not become you!

You even went to far as to blame the non-workers in church for your sister not getting saved. That’s pretty serious stuff!  You DID blame me for your un-conversion as you call it and I quoted you the lines in the email!

Settle your issues on matter of priority: Inerrancy, Predestination, Babies being safe, or what?

You are not a very good debater when it comes to working through a

debate - even in this very email, you seek to barrage your opponent

(me) which does nothing but prove you are not interested in any

discussion - but that you are only blind now, and need a lot of ammo to keep me from responding.

I have looked at your emails and respectfully responded to them.  I am writing a response to your leaflet too. But as I have said, it is not a priority. It will get finished soon enough. But it doesn’t make me question one iota of the Scriptures - just much of your ability to actually think anything through.

Your college studies have definitely not taught you how to think - only to question.

Did you know that was the first sin in the Garden of Eden - not disobeying God, but questioning God’s word.

And, by-the-way, it wasn’t Eve that questioned what God meant, but Satan questioning whether God could be trusted to tell the truth.  Seems like you have picked up the same modus operandi.  I keep responding to you because I do not want the discussion to end, nor do I want it to end on a sour note. You gave me the impression we could discuss these things - as I believe they are of the utmost importance.

Slow down, and decide what YOU want to do.

If you only want to flood me with your seeming contradictions, and problems, that will get us nowhere.

Craig

Craig. Please read my previous email again. You ARE NOT the reason why I’m not a Christian. You were the reason I became a Christian, the Bible is the reason I’m not one today.

Predestination is part of the debate on biblical errancy because the Bible also says man has free will—you can’t have both. I never called YOU names yet you called me a waster and a messer. I didn’t attack people in church I stated a fact, but it was low so sorry about that. With regards to my sister being not saved (at the time I was going all out to convert her) behaviour in church DID affect her views on Christianity. Someone told her demons would visit her in her bedroom now that she was close to Christ. It WAS hypocritical of people who were not working to preach at her. She heard the kids call Fr.O’__________ a child molester. There were people smoking outside the door of the hall (she was trying to quit at tjhe time). I was embarressed by that at the time myself. But ultimately she read the NT and made up her own mind, the sexism killed it for her, not Christian behaviour.  All I wanted to discuss was Biblical errancy, nothing more, nothing less.  Like you I’m passionate about what I know to be true and if I got carried away I’m sorry. But again you’re insulting me; telling me I can’t think properly; snide remarks like “over your head?”. You say the sin was Satan’s, not trusting God to tell the truth; I just sent you verses showing that God can lie. You’ll believe what you want to believe regardless of facst I point out. I don’t want the discussion to end either, but it does involve contradictions, and my pointing them out gets you aggitated. Bottom line: you believe the Bible is the word of God and are telling people such, I believe its a bogus religious writing and am telling people such and never the two shall meet. At least we’re both having success doing what we do.  We’ll never agree Craig, but we will succeed in getting personal and bitter.  I’d rather it didn’t, but it always does. I don’t mind it when its people like Ken Ham or D O’S or CM but I’d rather not fight with you. Both of us have shown an inability to keep it civil so let’s leave it at that.

Take care of yourself and all the best

Brian.